![\"Night](\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/08\/NightTImeLogic-web.jpg?resize=830%2C120&ssl=1\")
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Night Time Logic is the part or parts of a story that are felt but not consciously processed. Those that operate below the conscious surface. Those that are processed somewhere, somehow, and in some way other than\u2026 overtly and consciously. The deep-down scares. The scares that find their way to our core and unsettle us in ways we rarely see coming…<\/span><\/p>\n In this column, which shares a name with my New York-based reading series, I explore this phenomenon, other notions of what makes horror tick, and my favorite authors and stories, new and old with you. Today in my conversation with Sarah Langan we go \u201cbeyond the door\u201d and into the \u201cvoid\u201d\u2026 an abyss that could be the darkest of them all and might not be the one you were initially expecting.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n Sarah Langan\u2019s latest novel Good Neighbors<\/em> (2021 from Simon and Schuster) is a masterful depiction of the horror that is other people, the horrors of the way people treat each other, and the horrors of the way we see and treat ourselves. Over the last two decades Langan has also written dozens of short stories including \u201cThe Burn Victim\u201d which appears in Shivers 5<\/em> edited by Richard Chizmar and a trio of supernatural novels — The Keeper<\/em> (2006), The Missing<\/em> (2007), and Audrey\u2019s Door<\/em> (2009). Good Neighbors<\/em>, presented and marketed as a literary thriller, showcases Langan\u2019s profound talent —\u00a0 she is quite simply one of the finest authors writing today. The book is not supernatural horror like her other novels; it skillfully and effortlessly operates in the realm of the horror genre that I think of when I think of Jack Ketchum\u2019s work. The writings of Langan and Ketchum shine a light on the depth and breadth of the umbrella of what we consider horror.<\/span><\/p>\n While not based on true stories like much of Ketchum\u2019s work, the verisimilitude Langan presents is such that you\u2019d swear the story is ripped from the headlines. Don\u2019t look for supernatural baddies here. This is the darkness of the suburbs and the secrets it holds and the trauma and cruelty of how people can act towards outsiders and new comers, ordinary people who just want the same dignity and chances in life that we all do.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n Since Langan\u2019s previous novel, Audrey\u2019s Door<\/em>, is a book that I consider not only one of the finest haunted house novels, but also one my favorite novels in recent memory, so thoughts of it loomed large as I read Good Neighbors<\/em> and prepared to discuss it.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n In Audrey\u2019s Door<\/em> the supernatural element is a building that operates as the catalyst for the events of story. In Good Neighbors<\/em> the incident that sets everything in motion is an oil disaster in the suburbs, and the resulting sinkhole. While one element is supernatural and the other natural, they are both the catalyst for the human behavior and human reflection that Langan presents and illuminates for us as few other authors can.\u00a0 While these are two very different books, I couldn\u2019t help but notice what I perceived as the similarity and commonality of the Night Time Logic in play and operating in both books.<\/span><\/p>\n On the eve of the launch of Good Neighbors<\/em> in January 2021 I had a chance to talk to Sarah about these things:<\/span><\/p>\n DANIEL BRAUM: You are the author of many short stories and three other acclaimed and award-winning novels. You recently (December 2020) read a chapter from your third novel, Audrey\u2019s Door<\/em>, for the New York Ghost Story Festival. Could you tell a reader who may be new to your work what the book is about?<\/strong><\/p>\n Tell us more about the character of Audrey. Who is she and what does she want when we encounter her at the start of the book? How is her situation changed or affected by the supernatural?<\/strong><\/p>\n Audrey\u2019s scared of everything. She keeps trying to branch out, but her fears tend to drive her. In the haunted apartment building, her past, and the things she really fears, all come back.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n I found the haunted apartment building to be a very unique and uniquely depicted super-natural element. Even though they are very different books and different kinds of books do you see the house and the door in Audrey\u2019s Door<\/em> operating in some ways the same way the sink hole in your latest book, Good Neighbors<\/em>?<\/strong><\/p>\n I think they\u2019re different — one\u2019s evil, and wants evil. One is utterly human.<\/span><\/p>\n Good Neighbors<\/em> is full of non-supernatural, every-day \u201cutterly human\u201d people. The quotation on the cover is from Liv Constantine, author of The Last Mrs. Parrish<\/em>, who calls it \u201cA modern day Crucible\u2026 Beneath the Surface of a suburban utopia, madness lurks.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n Congratulations on the book. And for all the wonderful advance reviews and advance acclaim.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n What do you want readers to know about it before they pick it up?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Good Neighbors<\/em> is a fish out of water story, about misfit newcomers arriving on a suburban Long Island block. It\u2019s near future, and global warming is more intense, anxieties higher. The Wilde family manages to fit in at first, but an argument between newcomer mom Gertie Wilde and Queen Bee Rhea Schroeder turns them into outcasts. Things get worse when a sinkhole opens in the middle of the park, swallowing Rhea\u2019s daughter inside. During the days and weeks of search that follow, the neighbors start to look for someone to blame for everything that\u2019s been happening, including Shelly\u2019s fall. With Rhea\u2019s help, they start to blame to Wildes. They decide their own children might be in danger, unless they preventatively strike against them\u2026<\/span><\/p>\n The book is set in Long Island, New York. For those who do not know or are not from the area, Long Island often refers to Nassau and Suffolk County, which are the suburbs of New York City. The book is full of real places.\u00a0 A real bar called Croxley\u2019s Ale House. Nassau Community College. And Hofstra University, to name a few.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n The book and Maple Street, the street where is all takes place, feels like the suburbs I knew and the suburbs I know. Let\u2019s talk a bit about the suburbs. First, what is good about them? Why the allure? The main characters we are going to look at later were outsiders who wanted to come and made a decision to move. Also, what are the risks and ills of the suburbs — oth to the characters and in general?<\/strong><\/p>\n A cul de de sac is a great microcosm for the ways towns and nations function, and the suburbs are the typical Americana I was interested in exploring. Where I grew up, everybody was the same, or tried to be the same, and money was extremely important. I think things have relaxed since, but there\u2019s still that feeling of conformity. Of appearances being more important than substance. There were great things about the \u2018burbs, too. I got a good education and had great, long-term friends who remain friends. The suburbs are home to me. I only write about things I love. Life\u2019s too short.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n I found Good Neighbors<\/em> to be an unflinching and insightful look at relationships. Relationships between husbands and wives. Between parents<\/strong> and their children. Between children and other children. And these groups of suburban families and other families, in close proximity — their neighbors. In the middle of all these relationships we have a sink hole — a hole in the group that opens up in their neighborhood, right near their homes.<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n I have a bunch of questions about these people and their relationships. The children. The individuals. And the families. And then I have some questions about the sink hole. And how it affects them and drives the story. Let\u2019s start with the children. I\u2019m going to read a few lines about them.<\/strong><\/p>\n \u201cJulia looked across the hot, empty park, and the hole behind them, which kept getting bigger. Nothing made sense. Nothing was how it was supposed to be because the world was upside down. All the grown-ups were kids, and the kids were on their own, and maybe that\u2019s how it had been all along.\u201d\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Tell us about these kids — the pack of kids everyone calls \u201cthe Rat Pack\u201d and their world and reality they face in the book.<\/strong><\/p>\n These kids are inheriting a falling apart world, and they know it, and their parents know it. It\u2019s near future, and there\u2019s more sinkholes, more scarcity, more global warming refugees. But the adults, in an effort to shield their children, and also because it\u2019s an unpleasant reality, are in denial. Kids see it clearly, the way kids always see things more clearly, because they have so much less baggage.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n They\u2019re depicted with such verisimilitude. And you show us this suburban street — Maple Street from multiple perspectives, the perspectives of several families which for me brought to mind a favorable comparison to some of Stephen King\u2019s work — the way he delivers a sense of place through its people. As the work goes on I felt the book also revealed an element that I associate with author Jack Ketchum, an unflinching \u201ctrue crime\u201d perspective.<\/strong><\/p>\n What were some of, if any, of your influences and inspiration for the book? Talk to us about the real-world dangers or just downright ugliness or challenges to an outsider or non-conformist of what I\u2019m calling \u201cthe tyranny of the community\u201d?<\/strong><\/p>\n “<\/b>Tyranny of community”<\/span> is a great expression. My favorite play of all time is \u201cOur Town,\u201d and I think you can see that. The play\u2019s got this folksy feel, but it\u2019s sneaky and postmodern, and very much about the roles we all play, our identities, that never quite fit, and in death, don\u2019t matter. I also love \u201cDogville,\u201d a much bleaker version of the same story. I read Megan Abbot, who\u2019s a master of psychological suspense, and Patricia Highsmith.<\/span><\/p>\n Community is what forges civilization. Without it, humans would not survive. But community can also be unforgiving, and suspicious of things that threaten its power, even when those things (people) are harmless.<\/span><\/p>\n Some of the story is told looking back. From news articles and social media and even shows and Broadway shows done on what happens on Maple Street. Here\u2019s a line from the Broadway show about the events of the book that appears in the book.<\/strong><\/p>\n \u201cI blame the people of Maple Street. I blame the people who knew better.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n Let\u2019s talk about people who knew better. This book may not be \u201cdirect\u201d or what we commonly think of as horror as far as supernatural monsters and happenings. Do you feel the actions or inactions of \u201cpeople who know better\u201d comes under the umbrella of the horror genre?<\/strong><\/p>\n The book isn\u2019t traditional horror because there\u2019s no monster and nothing supernatural happens. Also, the characters never have over-the-top, heightened emotions, that genre characters tend to. But then again, Jack Ketchum\u2019s work was more horror than any monster, and totally believable (and great). So, another distinction with Good Neighbors<\/em> is that the point isn\u2019t the violence. I\u2019m not saying: <\/span>look at this horrible thing! Don\u2019t flinch! People are awful sometimes!<\/span><\/i> My premise is that people are basically good. What\u2019s horrible is the way our good instincts get manipulated by bad actors.<\/span><\/p>\n It\u2019s about the community, and social connections, and personal connections. The horrors are all about the characters behaving badly, because they\u2019re fighting monsters that don\u2019t exist.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n This excerpt is about those characters one will find on Maple Street. And their\u2026 wounds.<\/strong><\/p>\n \u201cYou never got the real Jane when you talked to her, just this textbook automaton semblance of sweet compassion.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n Along with the duplicity and the masks people wear we see these characters’ \u201cwounds\u201d or defining traumas that have shaped them and drive them. You mentioned something akin to this when discussing the film Wonder Woman 1984<\/em> and I found it fascinating. You mentioned how the film is set up and structured around how the characters are all motivated from their wounds. You say it much better, could you tell us more about this? And about looking at characters and story in this way.<\/strong><\/p>\n Usually, it\u2019s to conceal a wound. Something in our upbringings, that we think money or high ability will compensate for. People will see that \u201cspecialness,\u201d and believe we have value. <\/span>Wonder Women<\/span><\/i> skewers that perspective, in a really funny way. The villain dad tells his son that he\u2019s going to one day be rich and powerful and worth spending time with. Until then, he\u2019s too busy to hang out with his son. The dad was abused as a child — totally neglected. So this pursuit is really a way of avoiding his son, who scares him. The son might get to know him, and reject him, and why put himself through that? Why not wait until he has armor (money), so that rejection won\u2019t be as likely? What the dad doesn\u2019t see, is that this search for power is a misdirected desire to be loved. But he\u2019s already loved. By his son. And he\u2019s perpetuating this wound through the next generation, because his son doesn\u2019t feel loved, and equates love with power and money instead of, say, a day at the park. So, his son will have these messed-up values, too.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n Diana in <\/span>Wonder Woman<\/span><\/i> is the same. Her wound is that the love of her life died. More than fifty years later, she goes out to dinner with Kristen Wiig\u2019s character, and for a hot second, we wonder: is this going to a sexy place? Because sparks are FLYING. But no. Instead, she resurrects her dead lover, only it\u2019s not actually him. It\u2019s some other guy who doesn\u2019t even look like him, and she doesn\u2019t care. Nor does she care about the moral implications, or the lover\u2019s feelings. She just wants the shield. She doesn\u2019t want to get hurt, loving someone new again.<\/span><\/p>\n We all do that. We live in a capitalist society, where money is a surrogate for time and affection and love. And I\u2019m not saying money isn\u2019t necessary — it really is. It can make you safe. It\u2019s a gauge for workforce value (albeit flawed). But it can never make you happy. And no one will ever love you more for having it.<\/span><\/p>\n My big problem is gifts. I love getting them, except from close loved ones. Whatever happened in my upbringing, I learned to associate gifts\/money with love. So when my husband and kids get me presents, they\u2019re never good enough. It\u2019s messed up. I don\u2019t know why I\u2019m like that and I wish I wasn\u2019t. But there it is. Gifts are some kind of shield for me, and no one I love can ever provide one that\u2019s good enough — that adequately covers the wound.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n Here\u2019s an observation one of the characters makes about human behavior and human perception.<\/strong><\/p>\n \u201cGertie once read that when people start to lose their sight, they don\u2019t know it.\u00a0 Their minds fill in the missing parts. So, when they\u2019re driving, maybe they\u2019re passing a field of cows, but what they see is just green. Their minds make an assumption based on past experience. It occurred to her that people\u2019s personalities were like that. Full of holes. We think we\u2019re complete but we\u2019re not, and usually that\u2019s just fine. It\u2019s typical\u2026\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n Such a fascinating concept. It reminds me of something that happens when people experience the unexplained. They rationalize or come up with something rather than have to sit with or deal with they experienced something super-natural or that cannot be comprehended. This also is in play in the \u201cnatural\u201d in the everyday interactions that make up relationships.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n How does this come into play in the book?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n I think it\u2019s the reason Gertie and Rhea have their falling out. They both have blind spots in the exact same places, and the fantasies they create to fill those spaces come from very troublesome narratives. What\u2019s scary about this kind of thing, is that we don\u2019t know what we don\u2019t know — we\u2019re unaware of our blind spots.<\/span><\/p>\n Let\u2019s talk about the character Arlo. Who is this guy? And where is he in his life when we meet him at the beginning of Good Neighbors<\/em>?<\/b><\/p>\n Arlo has a lengthy backstory that never made it into the novel. In my mind, he split his childhood between an East Village squat (his dad\u2019s apartment) and his mom\u2019s place in Jersey (a pharmacist\u2019s assistant). His dad got him into drugs by the time he was eight, and the reason he\u2019s such a good husband when it comes to chores and cooking is that it\u2019s all he ever did for his parents. He\u2019s got his dad\u2019s musical talent (his dad\u2019s a failed musician), and with his band gets a top 40 hit. But his dad\u2019s the manager, and steals all the money, while Arlo gets heavily into drugs.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n Anyway, Arlo\u2019s on his second life by the time he meets Gertie. He\u2019s both ashamed by all that\u2019s he\u2019s lost, and thrilled to start a new chapter. Together, they move to Maple Street to raise their kids. But he\u2019s suspicious-seeming to the neighbors. The tattoos and drinking and PDA with Gertie were normal behaviors where he comes from, but totally unacceptable on Maple Street. He\u2019s also not clear on how he\u2019s supposed to talk to his kids. He\u2019s gruff and yells at them. It makes the neighbors crazy, even though some of them are doing worse things, they do them in secret.<\/span><\/p>\n Spoiler warning on this question. Tell us about how the people of Maple Street look at Arlo. Also, when Arlo gets back in touch with his old band mate, Danny, to try and sell his Grammy we get a glimpse of Arlo\u2019s life before and outside of Maple Street. In what ways are the interaction with Danny the same and in what ways different than with the Maple Street families?<\/b><\/p>\n I think Arlo and Danny are really honest with each other because of their history. It was a genuine friendship, despite the current bad blood. Arlo actually has another genuine friendship — Fred Atlas. It\u2019s a testament to him. He doesn\u2019t fit in with most people, but he has good taste.<\/span><\/p>\n Another key character is Rhea. Please tell us a bit about her and about her relationship with the 1979 Disney movie The Black Hole<\/em>?<\/b><\/p>\n Rhea\u2019s a classic narcissist. I studied them while writing Good Neighbors<\/em>, and they\u2019re pretty fascinating. They erect false, perfect selves as a coping mechanism in childhood, but they never let it go. They\u2019re prone to magical thinking, and the notion that they\u2019re either the best or worst people on earth. It\u2019s an affliction and they\u2019re in constant pain. In Rhea\u2019s case, she starts to want to lose the mask, and find out what\u2019s underneath when this story opens, because she knows that the person under the mask is very sick. But she\u2019s also terrified — who\u2019ll love that person, the real Rhea?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n That Disney film was a lot of fun to write about. Rhea used to watch it with her dad when she was a kid. It\u2019s about him, and the holes in perception we were talking about before, and the tragic thing that happened with her dad, that she\u2019s never acknowledged.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n Let\u2019s talk about the sink hole.<\/b><\/p>\n The hole is real. It is a real and literal thing. It is also the catalyst. The thing that drives the story and all the conflict. It occurred to me from the start it operates in the story in the place that often \u201cthe supernatural element might\u201d in a genre story.<\/b><\/p>\n You have a MS in environmental toxicology. So, I also realize you might have had something very different on your mind when you came up with the sink hole.<\/b><\/p>\n Tell us about the sink hole and how you use it in the story.<\/b><\/p>\n They\u2019re the physical evidence of global warming, which I think makes the neighbors a lot more anxious: they know things aren\u2019t going to get better. They\u2019re going to get worse.<\/span><\/p>\n The hole means a lot of things. It\u2019s like that Tom Waits song, \u201cAnything you can think of is true. And the fishes make wishes on you.\u201d I like the idea that it belongs to the reader.<\/span><\/p>\n That is a wonderful Tom Waits lyric. And I love the notion that some things belong to the reader. I also cannot help but think the sink hole and the recurring appearance of the Disney\u2019s The Black Hole<\/em> in the book are part of the \u201cNight Time\u201d part of the story. The part that is there but not necessarily or necessarily meant to be consciously processed.<\/b><\/p>\n Yes!<\/span><\/p>\n Good Neighbors<\/em> is out now and available wherever you buy books. In the time since this interview, it has gone on to achieve widespread acclaim and praise.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n A conversation between Daniel Braum and Sarah Langan from January 2021 can be found here.<\/a><\/span><\/p>\n About the Writers<\/b><\/p>\n Sarah Langan<\/b> grew up in Long Island and has an MFA in creative writing as well as a Master’s in Environmental Health Science \/ Toxicology. She now lives in Los Angeles with her husband, daughters, and giant, pushy rabbit. She is the author of the novels <\/span><\/em>The Keeper, The Missing, and<\/em> Audrey’s Door<\/span>. Her latest <\/span><\/em>Good Neighbors<\/span> is out from S&S. She’s received three Bram-Stoker awards, and her work has often been included in best-of-the-year lists and anthologies. She recently published “You Have the Prettiest Mask” in <\/span><\/em>Lady Churchill’s Rosebud Wristlet<\/span> edited by Gavin Grant and Kelly Link from Small Beer Press. Her novelette “The Night Nurse” appears in the <\/span><\/em>Best Horror of the Year Volume 12<\/span> edited by Ellen Datlow.\u00a0<\/span><\/em>Her website is <\/span>https:\/\/sarahlangan.com<\/span><\/a><\/em><\/p>\n He is the editor of the\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>Spirits Unwrapped<\/strong>\u00a0anthology. His work has appeared in publications ranging from\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>Lady Churchill\u2019s Rosebud Wristlet<\/strong>\u00a0and the\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>Shivers 8<\/strong>\u00a0anthology edited by Richard Chizmar to the\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>Best Horror of the Year Volume 12<\/strong>\u00a0edited by Ellen Datlow. He is the host of the Night Time Logic series, and the annual New York Ghost Story Festival. Please subscribe to his YouTube channel\u00a0DanielBraum<\/a>\u00a0where you can find free streaming versions of Night Time Logic interviews, readings, and more. He can be found on social media and at\u00a0bloodandstardust.wordpress.com<\/a><\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n About the New York Ghost Story Festival<\/b><\/p>\n When the year grows old and December\u2019s daylight departs too soon it is time to fill the dark nights with stories of ghosts and the supernatural. The New York Ghost Story Festival is an annual event of ghost story readings and discussion hosted by Daniel Braum founded in 2021, featuring authors of the uncanny, strange and fantastic from New York and around the globe.<\/span><\/em><\/p>\n Stay in touch at the Daniel Braum or Night Time Logic pages on social media. <\/span>Visit <\/span>http:\/\/bloodandstardust.wordpress.com<\/span><\/a>\u00a0for information and dates of the December 2021 Festival.<\/span><\/em><\/p>\n![\"photo](\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/09\/NTL-image-4.jpg?resize=167%2C250&ssl=1\")
![\"cover](\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/09\/NTLimage-3.jpg?resize=214%2C350&ssl=1\")
SARAH LANGAN: It\u2019s about an architect in freefall from her life. She leaves her fianc\u00e9, afraid to commit to raising a family with him because of the childhood she\u2019s come from. She stumbles across an extremely cheap Manhattan apartment, designed by her hero. But the building wants something from her. It wants her to build a door.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n![\"cover](\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/09\/NTL-SL-image-2.jpg?resize=232%2C350&ssl=1\")
I think a lot of us are looking for validation, but validation will never solve our problem. We want to be \u201cspecial\u201d or especially good at one thing, or famous, or rich, because that will make people like us. It\u2019ll be a shield. We\u2019re looking for protection. But from what?<\/span><\/p>\n![\"photo](\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/08\/AP-DBraum-1.jpg?resize=193%2C350&ssl=1\")
Daniel Braum\u2019s stories often explore the tension between the psychological and the supernatural. He is the author of the short story collections\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>The Night Marchers and Other Strange Tales<\/strong>\u00a0(Cemetery Dance eBooks 2016),\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>The Wish Mechanics: Stories of the Strange and Fantastic<\/strong>\u00a0(Independent Legions 2017), the chapbook\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>Yeti Tiger Dragon<\/strong>\u00a0(Dim Shores 2016) and the novella\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>The Serpent\u2019s Shadow<\/strong>\u00a0(Cemetery Dance eBooks 2019) His third collection,\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>Underworld Dreams<\/strong>, was released from Lethe Press in September 2020 and is out now as an audio book. His novel<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Servant of the Eighth Wind<\/strong>\u00a0is coming from Lethe Press in Summer of 2022.<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n