{"id":18003,"date":"2023-05-26T07:00:28","date_gmt":"2023-05-26T11:00:28","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/?p=18003"},"modified":"2023-05-07T12:31:58","modified_gmt":"2023-05-07T16:31:58","slug":"night-time-logic-matthew-cheney","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/night-time-logic-matthew-cheney\/","title":{"rendered":"Night Time Logic with Matthew Cheney"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" data-attachment-id=\"15845\" data-permalink=\"https:\/\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/night-time-logic-with-jeffrey-ford\/nighttimelogic-web\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/08\/NightTImeLogic-web.jpg?fit=830%2C120&amp;ssl=1\" data-orig-size=\"830,120\" data-comments-opened=\"1\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;orientation&quot;:&quot;1&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"NightTImeLogic-web\" data-image-description=\"\" data-image-caption=\"\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/08\/NightTImeLogic-web.jpg?fit=830%2C120&amp;ssl=1\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-15845\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/08\/NightTImeLogic-web.jpg?resize=830%2C120&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"Night Time Logic with Daniel Braum\" width=\"830\" height=\"120\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/08\/NightTImeLogic-web.jpg?w=830&amp;ssl=1 830w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/08\/NightTImeLogic-web.jpg?resize=350%2C51&amp;ssl=1 350w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/08\/NightTImeLogic-web.jpg?resize=768%2C111&amp;ssl=1 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 709px) 85vw, (max-width: 909px) 67vw, (max-width: 984px) 61vw, (max-width: 1362px) 45vw, 600px\" \/><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><strong><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\">\u201cMagic Tricks. Nightmares. Ambiguities and Confessions\u201d<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n<figure id=\"attachment_18006\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-18006\" style=\"width: 299px\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" data-attachment-id=\"18006\" data-permalink=\"https:\/\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/night-time-logic-matthew-cheney\/cheney_author_photo_color_face_web\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/cheney_author_photo_color_face_web.jpg?fit=768%2C900&amp;ssl=1\" data-orig-size=\"768,900\" data-comments-opened=\"1\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;orientation&quot;:&quot;0&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"cheney_author_photo_color_face_web\" data-image-description=\"\" data-image-caption=\"&lt;p&gt;Matthew Cheney&lt;br \/&gt;\n(Photo by Amy Wilson)&lt;\/p&gt;\n\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/cheney_author_photo_color_face_web.jpg?fit=768%2C900&amp;ssl=1\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-18006\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/cheney_author_photo_color_face_web.jpg?resize=299%2C350&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"photo of Matthew Cheney\" width=\"299\" height=\"350\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/cheney_author_photo_color_face_web.jpg?resize=299%2C350&amp;ssl=1 299w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/cheney_author_photo_color_face_web.jpg?w=768&amp;ssl=1 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 299px) 85vw, 299px\" \/><figcaption id=\"caption-attachment-18006\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Matthew Cheney<br \/>(Photo by Amy Wilson)<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Night Time Logic is the part of a story that is felt but not consciously processed.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In this column I explore the phenomenon of Night Time Logic and other aspects of horror and dark fiction through in depth conversation with authors about their stories.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I have an interest in discussing and exploring the strange, weird and uncanny side of the genre, particularly the kind of story one might call \u201cAickman-esqe.\u201d My short story collection is titled <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Night Marchers and Other Strange Tales <\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">in homage to Robert Aickman\u2019s strange tales. The new Cemetery Dance Publications trade paperback edition of the book can be found <a href=\"https:\/\/www.cemeterydance.com\/nightmarchersbraum\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">here<\/a>. Included are all-new story notes discussing strange tales and an essay exploring one of Aickman\u2019s own.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/night-time-logic-justin-burnett\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">In my previous column I spoke with Justin Burnett about \u201cleaving knots tied\u201d, the uncanny, and labyrinths<\/a>. In today\u2019s column Matthew Cheney and I speak about his new book <\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/www.thirdmanbooks.com\/catalog\/last-vanishing-man\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Last Vanishing Man<\/span><\/i><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> from Third Man Books and discuss the horror genre, Robert Aickman, strange tales and ambiguity, and much more. We begin\u2026\u201cafter the end.\u201d<\/span><!--more--><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>DANIEL BRAUM: The first story in the book \u201cAfter the End of the End of the World\u201d has a \u201cmulti-verse\u201d aspect of characters built into the narrative. Alternate versions of the characters are presented as the narrative moves forward. For one character, Jane, in all versions of her story the narrator tells us she comes to a glacier. Tell us your thoughts about stories both fiction and in the real world where all versions of the story despite divergences lead to one moment that stays the same.<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MATTHEW CHENEY: In stories like \u201cAfter the End\u2026\u201d and its cousin in my first collection, <em>Expositions<\/em>, it\u2019s the patterns that matter. As you say, <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">what remains<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. That\u2019s the question. That\u2019s the meat, the heart, the pure product. A friend who is also an editor rejected <em>Expositions<\/em> and told me that she didn\u2019t think it worked because it didn\u2019t have any base reality, any ground for the reader to stand on. But for me that absence is everything. I recognize that some readers may hate that &#8212; I know from reviews that they do! &#8212; but I hope there are also readers who are willing to let themselves inhabit that imaginative space, to let the story become a kind of extrapolation of possibilities.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I don\u2019t like ambiguity for its own sake. I don\u2019t like vagueness. But I do like to make space for the reader\u2019s imagination, for a story to open outward beyond the limit of what I myself can put into it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>I am very fond of this notion of ambiguity creating space for the reader to interact with the story. In this column I often mention \u201cintentional ambiguity\u201d when describing aspects of \u201cthe strange tale\u201d of Robert Aickman\u2019s and otherwise. I will ask you more about this as we go on.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, intentionality, definitely &#8212; but also vision. They go together, actually. The writer\u2019s intent is not to \u201cbe ambiguous,\u201d since that\u2019s just a terrible goal, but rather to bring a vision alive in a reader\u2019s mind. Vagueness is a lack of thoughtfulness. A lot of endings, for instance, in horror stories can cop out by being ambiguous when what they needed was to bring the vision to fruition. The writer needed to sit with the story and its implications longer. I struggle with this myself, and I\u2019m not here to say I always succeed, especially if trying to meet a deadline. Endings are incredibly difficult. It\u2019s a balancing act of trying to avoid a shallow, resolute twist while also not letting the story disperse into a fog. Even more than I look to Aickman, I look to Chekhov, the king of short fiction, whose sense of narrative balance, of tone and implication, remains unmatched.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>In the story Steven and Julian, one of whom is terminally ill at one point in the story, have a love so strong and a conviction in a shared cause so strong they dream of killing themselves by blowing up a dam. However they both \u201cleave\u201d the cause after their relationship ends and it raised for me the notion of the limits of our beliefs and the limits of our love. It was a surprising and effective turn for me as a reader that they did not feel strongly enough to die for the cause after their love was over.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>For you, in what way or ways is <i>The Last Vanishing Man<\/i> a collection of stories about love and convictions and the limits of both?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The most important thing to realize about Steven and Julian is that they are young and filled with all the passion of youth. They dream of being terminally ill together so that they can have the romantic purity of a beautiful martyrdom. They love each other as they do because they are in love with being in love. They like to Feel Lots Of Things! But they were never in love with either the cause or, in any deep way, each other &#8212; they were in love with feeling. That kind of love cools very fast, either because the person addicted to feeling must constantly seek a new high or because the person matures and learns to temper themselves.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You\u2019re right that the book has a lot of stories about love and conviction and the failures of both. And maybe the occasional triumph? I don\u2019t know. I am personally averse to strong feelings, as for me emotion is itself a kind of pain. The triumphs for my characters tend to be triumphs over the tyranny of emotion and triumphs over abject failure &#8212; the characters end up either cherishing a moment of simple contentment or building a life of ordinary grace. That seems like victory to me.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>I am looking forward to having another look at these stories through the lens of characters triumphs being triumphs over the tyranny of emotion. When you say \u201cemotion is itself a kind of pain\u201d are you referring to all emotion? Are there some more painful or tyrannical to you than others? Does this imply anything about the human condition? Are there any of the stories that you feel you\u2019ve captured this notion more to your satisfaction than others?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Strong emotion is a kind of pain because regardless of whether it is positive or negative, it removes us from what to me is the ideal state, which is contentment or tranquility. Sometimes it\u2019s a necessary pain, sometimes a pain that provides reminders of things we actually want to remember (e.g. love) or should remember so that we can overcome them (e.g. shame). Often, it\u2019s an unavoidable pain. Trying to avoid the unavoidable is a waste of time. The key is to recognize where emotions spring from &#8212; why am I angry? why am I elated? &#8212; and to acknowledge that, be aware, and not cling to it. Emotions are easy to get addicted to, and we can do terrible things because we want to keep positive emotions from fading away (as they inevitably do) and keep negative emotions from overtaking us (as they, also, inevitably do). I think of emotions as poison, just as I think of alcohol as poison. I very much enjoy a nice whiskey, for instance, but I have no illusions about its health benefits. Despite various claims, it\u2019s pretty clear, scientifically, that there is no such thing as a healthy amount of alcohol for the human body. It rots our organs, muddles our brains, and encourages cancer. If you\u2019re drinking alcohol every day, you have an unhealthy attachment to it, an attachment that, sooner or later, will cause suffering. You are enslaved by your desire for poison. Similarly, while some elation now and then can be nice, if you\u2019re seeking emotion every day, if you feel that you cannot live your life without a regular hit of big feelings, you probably have an unhealthy attachment to this poison, an attachment that will ultimately injure your self and the people around you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This idea finds various expression in my stories. For instance, \u201cHunger\u201d is a fairly traditional horror story but has something like a happy ending because most of the characters find a kind of equilibrium at the end and the narrator, though she hasn\u2019t achieved that tranquility herself, is working toward it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>\u201cThe people we love destroy us.\u201d \u201cThe people we fail to love destroy us, too.\u201d Tell me more about the Venn Diagram formed by these lines from the end of the story.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They\u2019re probably best approached as you would a <a href=\"https:\/\/www.britannica.com\/topic\/koan\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Zen koan<\/a>.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Authors and others sometimes look at endings as a cycle and as a circle formed with beginnings and new beginnings. One of my favorite depictions of this in fiction is in Book 7 of Stephen King\u2019s <i>The Dark Tower <\/i>series. Why did you choose \u201cAfter the End of the End of the World\u201d to open the collection? And what relationship, if any does it have with \u201cA Liberation\u201d or any of the other stories?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a book full of aftermaths. So it seemed reasonable to begin it with a story where the title signals the end of everything \u2026 which must also be the beginning of something. (I don\u2019t believe, in fact, that there are endings, really, just changes. Everything is change.) Because it is also an essay, \u201cAfter the End of the End of the World\u201d can serve as a kind of introduction or an <\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/www.poetryfoundation.org\/learn\/glossary-terms\/ars-poetica\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">ars poetica<\/span><\/i><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> for the collection. The book then moves to the title story, which in its own way is about how stories end and don\u2019t end.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u201cA Liberation\u201d is the last long story in the book (\u201cThe Box\u201d is a 400-word story that serves as a kind of coda). The melting tundra that the city is sinking into does, indeed, echo back to the melting glaciers of \u201cAfter the End\u2026\u201d The final sentences of both stories are important. (\u201cAfter the End\u2026\u201d finishes with the word <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">begin<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. \u201cA Liberation\u201d is a bit less open, finishing with the winter\u2019s <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">conquering night<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.) Despite the melting of the world, entropy assures us of the heat death of the universe. For all we know, an end.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Another story \u201cAfter the End\u2026\u201d relates to is \u201cMass,\u201d which in a very different way is about how people go on with life after someone they are close to commits political violence.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" data-attachment-id=\"18007\" data-permalink=\"https:\/\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/night-time-logic-matthew-cheney\/lvm_cover_final_web\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/lvm_cover_final_web.jpg?fit=672%2C1024&amp;ssl=1\" data-orig-size=\"672,1024\" data-comments-opened=\"1\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;orientation&quot;:&quot;0&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"lvm_cover_final_web\" data-image-description=\"\" data-image-caption=\"\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/lvm_cover_final_web.jpg?fit=672%2C1024&amp;ssl=1\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-18007\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/lvm_cover_final_web.jpg?resize=230%2C350&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"cover of The Last Man Vanishing\" width=\"230\" height=\"350\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/lvm_cover_final_web.jpg?resize=230%2C350&amp;ssl=1 230w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/lvm_cover_final_web.jpg?w=672&amp;ssl=1 672w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 230px) 85vw, 230px\" \/>The title story of the book, \u201cThe Last Vanishing Man,\u201d originally appeared in <i><a href=\"https:\/\/www.conjunctions.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Conjunctions<\/a>,<\/i> a journal known for fabulism and interstitial works. It is a story about two stage magicians named The Great Alpha and the Great Omega and the narrative begins with a passage on \u201cwhat is memory and what is misdirection.\u201d The story moves forward and backward in time skillfully and with great effect. At the end of the first part of the story there is a disappearance and then the story speeds up and moves 40 years forward in time for the narrator.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Tell me about the use of time and placement in time as a vantage for storytelling and for revealing story in a non-linear way. You do it so well.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I designed the story as a kind of magic trick. I\u2019m really grateful to readers like yourself who appreciate it. It\u2019s honestly a huge relief that anybody thinks it works!\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That story is one of the only things I\u2019ve ever written where I wrote out a detailed timeline, a blueprint of the story as well as of everything that\u2019s left out of the story. I wanted it to be tricksy but fair, to produce that feeling of really great magic where you don\u2019t mind being fooled, where in fact it feels like a gift to have been allowed to believe in the illusion &#8212; to have escaped, for a moment, into the wonder of belief. Ultimately, the story became something a bit other than that because in the process of writing it, I got to like the characters and want to just hang out with them, so that undercut a bit of the mechanical aspect, but I\u2019m glad of that &#8212; as much fun as a mechanical duck might be, it\u2019s more fun to see a mechanical duck transform into a live one.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I should note here that I think of <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Conjunctions<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> as my aesthetic home. It\u2019s a great honor to have been published by them twice in the print journal and twice online. Brad Morrow, the astonishingly brilliant editor, has rejected vastly more stories of mine than he\u2019s published, but I feel no shame or sadness about this, because to be published even once in <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Conjunctions<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> is the highest of honors. They have, for decades now, supported innovative, radical, strange writing of all sorts, with a truly broad vision. Brad\u2019s rejected some of my stories for not being strange enough. Isn\u2019t that wonderful?! I mean, it\u2019s no fun to be rejected, but I deeply appreciate the reminder that here, at least, is an editor who values me for my weirdness. We need that encouragement from editors and readers, because it\u2019s so easy for the insidious normalities of the world to insist on stifling our imaginations, and it\u2019s so difficult to find people who value the truly strange, odd, unsettling. (They may say they do, but in practice they show what they want are variations on old, familiar monster movies and soap operas.)<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>I like how you phrased that \u201ctricky but fair.\u201d I imagine if a story is tricky but not fair perhaps then it falls into being \u201cvague\u201d in all the wrong ways, at least for what I am after in story telling. This story, in addition to being tricky but fair in resolving and eventually explaining some of the illusion, still leaves what I call an \u201cintentional ambiguity\u201d out there, and these are things I delight in and what I feel captures \u201cthe essence\u201d of a strange tale in the Robert Aickman sense of the word, if such a thing is a thing. More about this in the next question.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I don\u2019t like manipulative writing, writing that tries to pull a particular emotional response from the reader. (Although one of my all-time favorite novels is <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A Little Life<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> by Hanya Yanagihara, one of the most emotional novels ever written, and I think a good argument can be made that it\u2019s manipulative on every page. Genius trumps rules!) Playing fair means to me allowing the reader their own space for thinking and feeling. Don\u2019t hide stuff from the reader just to hide stuff. In fact, err on the side of always giving the reader information as early as possible. Respect the reader. Assume a reader smarter than yourself. Those are principals I try to hold on to.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>One of the things I enjoy about the book is that the stories operate for me in the borderlands of genre and don\u2019t fit neatly in one box or any box at all. For purposes of this column I am looking at them with an eye on the horror genre and through the lens of \u201cstrange tales\u201d as Aickman might use the term.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>\u201cThe Last Vanishing Man\u201d is a both a very effective horror story and very effective strange tale to this reader. The horror could be said to be quiet horror. The magicians perform a vanishing trick that for the purposes of the story can be said to be or appear as being real. The man chosen from the audience and one of the magicians disappears and does not return. This is a horror and a mystery and the catalyst of the tale.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>One of the hallmarks of a strange tale is the element of the unexplained. Is what we saw supernatural or did it have an earthly explanation? The disappearance and how it is presented operates like this for me and thus allows the focus of the story to be on the characters and how the unexplained event impacted their lives.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>What are some hallmarks of a strange tale for you? Do you have any favorites among Robert Aickman\u2019s strange tales?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think \u201cstrange stories\u201d are &#8230; stories that the reader perceives as strange. I don\u2019t see a need to define. I think my own are strange stories because, for better or worse, I have yet to meet anyone who\u2019s read my fiction who thinks it\u2019s not strange.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Aickman is, indeed, a pivotal figure for me. (I wrote an essay about him for <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Electric Literature<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> some years ago.) I am wary of the influence of Aickman, though, because it\u2019s very easy to do bad Aickman pastiche and very difficult to do good Aickman tribute. Ambiguity too often becomes an alibi. Aickman was a minor genius, and what came naturally for him was what takes mortals like me far more work and is far more likely to end up in a fizzle than <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">frisson<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The thing about Aickman is that ambiguity was not for him a posture or a technique. It was central to how he perceived life and the universe. I could be wrong, but I doubt he set out to write a new story with the thought, \u201cI would like to be ambiguous at the end of this tale because that seems to me a dandy technique.\u201d He did not write to simplify his vision but to expand it. He wrote from and toward ambiguity because to do anything else would have been a betrayal of his very being.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For me, today, at this moment, the stories that continue to resonate \u2014 or perhaps enchant (or is it bewitch?) \u2014 are \u201cThe Stains\u201d and \u201cThe Inner Room.\u201d If Aickman had only written those two stories, he would for me still be one of the absolute greats of English-language literature, because those stories are infinite. I don\u2019t even know how many times I\u2019ve read them both and every single time it\u2019s like reading a new story. They are patterns of boundlessness.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But of course, he wrote many other stories, none of them bad, a few of them a little flat, most of them quite beguiling. I often find that one I didn\u2019t much connect with will, later, in a different mood, reveal itself to me. For years, I thought \u201cThe Wine-Dark Sea\u201d was kind of tinkly and silly. I reread it recently and was enraptured.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>The beginning of your answer reminds me of something wonderful I once heard the musician Regina Spektor say about her creativity. To paraphrase it which I am sure does not do it justice she said she does not have to understand what is happening or how it happens for her to believe in it and create. I am with her on that and with you on there is not a need to define a strange tale. Certainly no need to define it to enjoy such a story. As a reader and as a writer I enjoyed \u201cstrange tales\u201d and open ended and intentionally ambiguous and fabulist kinds of stories for most of my life before learning there were names one might use for these things if one desires. So while I ultimately would go with you on there is no need there still is a great amount of joy and satisfaction for me in playing the game of analysis and trying to name and categorize what is ultimately nameless.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Aickman was known for not discussing his writing and inspiration. I think what the community knows is from what little he did write about it and the recollections of those around him. There is a documentary out there which I am forgetting the name as I write this. Based on that I think you are correct in that he was writing to capture truths as he perceived them. I\u2019m glad that you mentioned \u201cThe Wine-Dark Sea.\u201d It is a story that\u2026 enchants and bewitches me. It also is one that I find it very hard to categorize or even reduce into a way to communicate in a short hand. So it is even more of a strange tale to me, in several meanings of those words.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>That being said what, if anything do you take away from that story? To you what do you perceive is happening in the story. That is one of the delightful things about sharing stories particularly Aickman\u2019s is the range of things we readers take away from and see in them.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What interested me this time about \u201cThe Wine-Dark Sea\u201d was that it\u2019s an allegory that doesn\u2019t really work. Which I mean as a compliment. Allegory is a clunky form unless it\u2019s somehow broken \u2014 proper allegory has a clear, one-to-one symbol system. \u201cThe Wine-Dark Sea\u201d is obviously full of symbols. They scream out, \u201cI am a symbol!\u201d But what are those symbols doing? Hard to say. That\u2019s terrible for allegory, but great for a story that is unsettled and unsettling. Often, such things can get campy \u2014 think of the worst of Tennessee Williams, or the astonishingly bad-good movie <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Boom!<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> made from his play <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Milk Train Doesn\u2019t Stop Here Anymore<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and starring Elizabeth Taylor, Richard Burton, and No\u00ebl Coward (a film beloved by John Waters). There <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">is<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> a certain campiness to \u201cThe Wine-Dark Sea,\u201d but it\u2019s restrained, and it contributes to what makes the story so unsettling. Mostly, that story reminds me of J.M. Coetzee, another favorite of mine, and a writer I\u2019ve written about a lot. Coetzee got pegged as writing allegory early in his career, and I don\u2019t think he intended to be particularly allegorical, and was probably quite surprised by the accusation, but I have a suspicion he later decided \u2014 because, in my mind at least, he\u2019s a mischievous devil \u2014 to say, \u201cOh, you think I\u2019m writing allegory? Let me see what you do with this,\u201d and then wrote, for instance, the utterly bizarre <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Elizabeth Costello<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and, ultimately, his trilogy of <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Jesus<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> novels, which are quite bewildering and profoundly strange and have already inspired a bookshelf of tomes from academics writing about them in an attempt to nail down \u2026 something or other. Such fiction fills me with glee.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Part of what makes Aickman\u2019s strange tales and his kind of story work for me is as you say, the presence of allegory but without that on the nose one-to-one lining up. I don\u2019t think there is a formula however what you point out is a hallmark I observe when thinking about these stories.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Moving on back to your title story I want to point out a few stand out passages:<\/strong><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><strong>\u201c\u2026 the place was so remote then, people who came here weren\u2019t really on vacation, they were after something else, some deeper escape\u2026\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>\u201cOf course, Alice and I were escapees. Escape artists. Literally, actually.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>And this passage that follows shortly after in the narrative:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>\u201cNobody looks carefully if we don\u2019t have a reason to. We don\u2019t really see each other, do we?\u201d<\/strong><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><strong>Your presentation of gender and the characters\u2019 relationships and feelings on gender is effortless and with verisimilitude. What can you tell us about the character of the magician, Alice? These passages evoke one of my favorite stories \u201cThe Men Women Don\u2019t See\u201d by Tiptree \/ aka Alice Sheldon.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We live in an era of very fluid gender norms in many parts of the U.S. \u2014 thankfully so! But in a time or place of more constricted rules and concepts, where, say, people called \u201cmen\u201d dress in one particular way and people called \u201cwomen\u201d dress in another particular way and there are no concepts for people other than \u201cmen\u201d and \u201cwomen\u201d \u2026 then a person whose body may be more along the lines of what society thinks is \u201cwoman\u201d could dress in the particular way of a \u201cman\u201d and not be quickly questioned because the idea of such a thing is, for most people in that time and place, literally unimaginable. This is worth remembering. It\u2019s key to some of what the title story is up to.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Illusion can be more important than reality sometimes. For that matter, maybe reality itself is illusion. Often, surface reality is the reality that matters most, the reality that causes the most effects in the world. I don\u2019t actually believe very strongly in anything called \u201creality\u201d because I don\u2019t think we have the brains and nervous systems to be able to comprehend whatever might be ultimate reality. We do our best with what we can know. (I know if I were to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge, I would almost certainly die. That doesn\u2019t mean I know what, ultimately, gravity is or my body is or death is.) We go through life trying to hop from one illusion to another without getting too lost or too banged up.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The unimaginable is the stuff of magic. Gustav Kuhn\u2019s fascinating book <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Experiencing the Impossible: The Science of Magic<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> offers a taxonomy of misdirection, with one of the types being false assumptions, which includes the limits of imagination. For instance, if I come over to your house and you ask if I\u2019ll perform some amazing feat, I might request from you a deck of cards and you might take one out of your kitchen drawer. A familiar deck to you. Then, I would perform a trick for you with it, one where I identify cards without seeing their faces. You might try to imagine how I would do the trick. Maybe there\u2019s some sort of reflective surface behind you? (Nope. You look, but it\u2019s just a flat, dull wall.) Maybe your glasses gave something away? (I repeat the trick after you\u2019ve taken your glasses off.) Maybe I\u2019m actually psychic! (Cue <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Twilight Zone<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> theme song. Or <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">X-Files<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.) You are perplexed. I have not been out of your sight since I arrived. It\u2019s a random deck of cards that you almost forgot you even owned. How could I have possibly achieved this impossible feat?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What you haven\u2019t imagined is that this is not as innocent a deck of cards as it seemed. When I was at your apartment a few months or maybe years ago, when you weren\u2019t looking I carefully and almost imperceptibly (to you) marked that deck and put it back in the kitchen drawer where I found it. You would not think I would go to such lengths for a simple card trick. You would not think I would snoop around your kitchen looking for random stuff with which to perform a magic trick maybe years in the future. Thus, without my explaining the trick to you, you would likely not imagine it was possible for me to have done anything to those old cards buried in the back of a random drawer.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What is imaginable and what is unimaginable matters. That\u2019s why stretching our imaginations is vitally important for our lives. Knowledge requires strong imagination. The limits of your imagination are the limits of your world.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u201cThe Last Vanishing Man\u201d is about magic but it is also about the kind of historical and epistemological research we do when, for instance, we seek lost queer histories. How do we imagine the past? Why? For instance, what do we make of a collection of very old photographs in which men are affectionate with each other? Were they having a sexual relationship, or did they desire a sexual relationship? Were standards of friendship between men just different in the past? Is it foolhardy to attach the values of today to the ghostly remnants of a long lost yesterday? What does it mean to say yes or no to any of those questions? Can we preserve and cherish the ambiguities, the immense wonder of all we cannot know and yet desire to know, desire to be known, desire to be true or not true?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That\u2019s what I had in mind when I wrote the story, but also, I\u2019m sure, yes, as you say \u2014 I expect I was thinking of Tiptree. I had recently been teaching Tiptree\u2019s stories in a college course on gender and science fiction, so I\u2019m sure Tiptree and Sheldon \u2014 for certainly they were different people, even if one created the other \u2014 and \u201cThe Women Men Don\u2019t See\u201d were somewhere in my mind. Also the movie <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Albert Nobbs<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, with Glenn Close. And the entire history of the world.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Stretching our imagination is so, so important. So much of what in this \u201creality\u201d what we perceive or classify as \u201cmagic\u201d or the \u201csupernatural\u201d I believe is \u201cnatural\u201d phenomena we have not yet imagined or do not yet understand or have a classification for yet. Fiction can be important in this way. Thankfully one of the areas of progress in our lifetimes has been gender norms and perceptions. And things and occurrences in stories that were strange when I was young are not so strange or out of the norm for today\u2019s generations. Preserving the ambiguities and wonder in light of this seems like it might be an impossible task given the forward arrow of time but we still can cherish them and try to create or recreate that sense of wonder and danger and conflict as your title story does.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Wonder is hard! Too many of the roads that might lead to wonder are actually mapped by people who are enemies of wonder, who want to offer answers instead of questions. It\u2019s one of my frustrations with a lot of occult and paranormal writing, which I read a probably unhealthy amount of, always with the hope of finding something truly strange and beguiling. But too often such writing is done by bean counters, by people with less imagination \u2014 less vision \u2014 than the average poodle. Lovecraft said something similar once, about how disappointed he was when he read some occult books and discovered how utterly unimaginative they were. (But then, I feel the same thing about horror fiction. Especially how utterly Christian it all is, even when not written by Christians. So much horror fiction is only horrifying if you believe in the Christian mythology and its moralities. Something I appreciate in Thomas Ligotti\u2019s work is that he\u2019s not drawing from an idea of Christian morality as the basis of the universe. Even at the level of props, Christianity has a hold on the horror genre. I\u2019m waiting for a character in a vampire story to hold up a crucifix and the vampire responds, chuckling, \u201cSorry, I\u2019m an atheist.\u201d)<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>I feel like I\u2019ve seen that scene somewhere! I also enjoy (and seek) the kind of horror that is not based on religious beliefs. In the borderlands of the genre I think is a good place to sometimes find the truly strange and beguiling side by side with the unexplainable and human fear that goes with it.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>The stories in <i>The Last Vanishing Man<\/i> are grouped into four sections. Why did you choose to group them this way? What is the significance of the quotations for each section?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My first collection, <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Blood: Stories<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, collected stuff that was mostly written separately. A few of the stories, though, I had long thought of as a trilogy, but didn\u2019t mark that in any way in the book, just put them one right after the other (\u201cArt of Comedy\u201d, \u201cWalk in Light\u2026\u201d, \u201cMap of Everywhere\u201d) and at least one reviewer and some other readers found the stories too similar and tedious. It\u2019s entirely possible that these folks would have thought the stories were tedious even if I had somehow indicated in the book that the resemblances were intentional \u2014 the stories rely a lot on a kind of free-floating surrealism I enjoy, but which many people have very little patience for \u2014 but I did wonder then, and wonder still, if those stories might have had a better shot at being appreciated if I had given them their own section.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right after <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Blood<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, I started thinking about how I might do a second collection, and I actually began trying to write stories more intentionally to be part of that next collection and not just separate things. Thus, pretty much every story in <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Last Vanishing Man<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> has a partner, or at least a cousin, and maybe a few.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Putting it together, I began by placing the partner\/cousin stories together. But this proved ruinous because a story like \u201cMass\u201d ought not to be read right before or after \u201cA Suicide Gun\u201d, even though I always thought of them as related. But their centers of gravity are too similar. They pull the reader in the same direction. They needed to have something between them to offer other directions. Most of my stories go down into an abyss, but the reader ought to be allowed a few different abysses!<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Also, very few people read story collections in order. I certainly don\u2019t. We read around, we hop and skip and jump. By creating sections, I could signal to the reader that there <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">is<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> some intentional organization, even if they choose to ignore it, which is entirely their right. And, indeed, there are alternate organizations of the book that I also like. (For instance, read the first story in each section, then the second, etc. and you\u2019ll get the greatest sense of variety.) The organization I have provided allows, I think, certain resonances. I don\u2019t want to say what those resonances are, however, because that\u2019s for the reader to think about. I didn\u2019t even exactly have a sense of words for those resonances. They\u2019re about tone as much as anything. The epigraphs help with that, I hope, sort of like a chorus in a Greek tragedy. Readers might learn something, too, by considering who the writers of the epigraphs are. Imagine those writers reading along with you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>\u201cKilling Fairies\u201d is another effective horror story and strange tale to this reader. In the acknowledgments you mention the \u201cNon-fiction-speculative-fiction\u201d of author Rick Bowes. How does this come into play in the story?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rick is a dear friend and a secret master. His <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Dust Devil on a Quiet Street<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> is one of my favorite books of all time. Like Aickman\u2019s stories, Rick\u2019s seem deceptively easy to pull off and are actually feats of astonishing skill. I wrote \u201cKilling Fairies\u201d to explore for myself just how difficult it is to write like Rick.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I also wanted to preserve some of my memories of my first year of college, because there were some amazing characters. So I gave myself the task of writing a story with as little fiction in it as possible, just enough to weave together a narrative and allow some fantastical element, or at least a hint of one. The only totally fictional character in the story is Jack, the guy with the fairies. And even he was based on a kind of character I hoped to meet when I first moved to New York, a cynical and maybe dangerous guy with nothing but contempt for conventional wisdom. The sort of person my young self-imagined as a perfect boyfriend and my older self knows is a terrible boyfriend.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I set out to write the story and I did write the story but it took <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">forever<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. Four months, six months, I don\u2019t remember. Every single sentence was a struggle. I shiver even thinking about it now. It\u2019s so much easier just to make stuff up! I don\u2019t know how anybody ever manages to write a whole book of memoir. Or how Rick manages to create glitteringly beautiful and humble stories that effortlessly mingle truth and fiction. Me, I go the lazy way and just invent as much as I possibly can.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>In the story the character is shown something very strange in a box that he is told is a fairy.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>In folklore the fae are presented as very dangerous creatures and in this story we are told of the dark meals that are this thing\u2019s preferred food. Like in the previous story we\u2019ve discussed there is a disappearance. The ending reminds me of and evokes the ending of Aickman\u2019s \u201cThe Swords\u201d in the sense that the very end of the story is a sweeping rush forward in time and that the events of the story and what we have seen are not understood by the character nor definitively or explained to us at all. In this case the unexplained element is the thing in the box, whether it was supernatural or otherwise.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Can it be said, in stories like \u201cThe Swords\u201d and \u201cKilling Fairies\u201d, that the danger and emotion and horror is present in some place other than the supernatural or speculative elements?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For me, the most horrifying moment in \u201cKilling Fairies\u201d is when the gay narrator\u2019s roommate, whom the narrator has assumed to be gay, says something murderously homophobic. And maybe it\u2019s horrifying because I lived it. Because I remember the exact moment and the exact words. I remember thinking that if my roommate knew what I was he would want me to die. That he would himself want to kill me.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I\u2019ve never read a work of fiction as terrifying as life.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>I am glad you mentioned this moment. I identified this moment as the most horrifying moment in the story and the most affecting to me in the book! I opted not to ask about it and here we are after you\u2019ve mentioned it. I am sorry to hear you lived this and had this terrible experience. Looking at it through the lens of fiction these human things, these horrors humans inflict on each other are so much more affecting to me and so much more frightening. Both because ultimately I don\u2019t believe in monsters, at least not with the certainty that I believe in homophobes and people who dehumanized each other. The way this happens with the narrators dreams and sense of wonder and sense of world expansion presented in the story it really just drops the floor and bottom out from you reading it. The story has such a verisimilitude and hearing your process on how it came to be it is easy to see why.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>You mentioned you think Aickman was seeking to \u201ccapture\u201d the world as he saw it in his stories (and I certainly can see that being so) and you\u2019ve mentioned how you sought to incorporate a lot of truth into \u201cKilling Fairies\u201d and you mentioned your character\u2019s relationship to your thoughts on emotions. Do you think authors seek to capture their own realities and truths in their work? And if so and for those that might why do you think this is so?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We are lonely creatures, trapped in our bodies and our minds, and writing is one of the most effective ways to cross into other minds and know other people\u2019s feelings. Now and then I stop when reading an old piece of writing and have a truly uncanny feeling \u2014 the feeling of reading the thoughts and imaginings of someone long dead. As money allows, I collect old books, because to read a book that\u2019s a hundred or two hundred years old, to look at those actual pages, the actual print \u2026 it\u2019s time travel and ghost hunting and necromancy all together.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That moment in \u201cKilling Fairies\u201d is absolutely real, but what I don\u2019t know is what became of my roommate. The roommate in the story has a specific fate, one I made up. This gets to the question of ambiguity. I do not know much of what became of my roommate after he moved to a different dorm. I searched for him online once, curious to see what sort of adult he became, and found a few little things, but nothing to answer the real questions I have about him and who he became. I have no idea, for instance, about his sexuality. I gave a tentative answer to that in the story because it made sense, it fits with my experience that a lot of the worst homophobia comes from people who are afraid of their own queer feelings. Reality left questions unanswered, and I wrote the story to provide myself with some answers. So even though there are ambiguities in the story, they\u2019re nothing compared to the mysteries of life.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People sometimes ask me how I read so much horror fiction and watch so many horror movies, and I say no fiction has ever horrified me as much as reading a biography of Pol Pot or reading Gitta Sereny\u2019s <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Into That Darkness<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, about the Nazi death camps. Those gave me nightmares.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>\u201cAt the Edge of the Forest\u201d is a narrative about life and loss. It also operates as an effective strange tale for me in that there is real tension and ambiguity in whether the events of the story are the result of the supernatural or the result of the psychological state or memory and perception of the the main character, Bryan.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Are the mysterious letters something supernatural? Is this a ghost story? Is Bryan\u2019s memory and perception mistaken? Is this a psychological story? Does it matter, to you or to the reader?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those are good questions I think readers can answer for themselves as they wish. I might think of \u201cAt the Edge of the Forest\u201d along the lines of a story I love, \u201cOnly Partly Here\u201d by Lucius Shepard. Whether that story is read as a ghost story or a non-supernatural story depends a lot on how and where you encounter it. Read in a book called, say, <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">21st Century Ghost Stories<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> you\u2019ll probably interpret it more or less unquestioningly as a ghost story. Read in a book that does not label its genre, the story becomes something different. I love fiction that lives in that unsettled, floating world. Indeed, I think that is what life is. (Ultimately, I think we know about as much of life as a mosquito does.) I dislike fiction that settles its questions.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Oh, I love Lucius Shepard and I absolutely love that story. Life is indeed unsettled and never wrapped up neatly and all pretty in a bow. That might be the real horror of existence those who try and pretend this is so. Part of the reason I believe I am drawn to stories with ambiguity is in that way they are more like life and thus I am able to engage and suspend disbelief. Context and where one encounters a story does make a big difference. Upon learning that Aickman originally published \u201cThe Swords\u201d in the <em>Fourth Book of Fontana Ghost Stories<\/em> along with his introduction(s) I think is a huge clue in what perhaps he thought of the story. Do you have a favorite or stand out Lucius Shepard story or one that comes to mind during our conversation?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I had the great honor to read with Lucius at KGB in New York. (It was the week of Thanksgiving in 2007 and I think I was asked because I was living in the area and nobody else was around. I certainly didn\u2019t deserve to read with him.) We kept in touch via Facebook after that, right up to his death, which was a real blow. I love the Dragon Griaule stories the most (I <\/span><a href=\"http:\/\/strangehorizons.com\/non-fiction\/reviews\/the-dragon-griaule-by-lucius-shepard\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">wrote about them<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> for <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Strange Horizons<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> in 2012). The novella was his ideal form, and <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Viator<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Floater<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, both more or less novellas, are astonishing. His early novella \u201cR&amp;R\u201d also forever has a warm spot in my heart because it was the cover story of the first science fiction magazine I ever held in my hands, the April 1986 issue of <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Asimov\u2019s<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. I was too young to understand the story, but it for some reason grabbed hold of my imagination anyway. Lucius is an interesting case, because he wrote plenty of stuff that I think is awkward or overwritten or exoticizing or even flat-out sexist, but still it\u2019s operating on a level of prose and imagery that, more often than not, is just thrilling. He fascinates me because he was clearly drawn to a kind of machismo that I generally loathe, but some part of him also knew this machismo was no more healthy than a carton of unfiltered Camels. A lot of his best work, for me, seems to come from the tension of attraction and repulsion, and instead of solving the equation of that attraction and repulsion, it holds them together as long as it can.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Thanks to Ellen Datlow\u2019s photo archive you pointed out I was at that reading! Lucius Shepard\u2019s &#8220;The Jaguar Hunters&#8221; is a one of my favorite stories and a story reference often. I hope to explore more of his work here in this forum and elsewhere in the time to come.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>In the second to last story in the book, \u201cA Liberation\u201d why is the name of the location the city the character Arkay travels across the globe to relocate to redacted and presented only as \u201cN\u2014\u201d?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That\u2019s just a cheeky nod to some old stories \u2014 many, in my imagination at least, Russian \u2014 that start off like, \u201cA few years ago in the city of S\u2014, there lived a man who believed his dog was the reincarnation of his mother.\u201d I often like to highlight the textuality of stories, their artificiality. (I think we do not value artificiality enough and we value something that gets called authenticity too much. But, again, I like illusions.) While \u201cA Liberation\u201d was inspired by the Siberian city of Norilsk, I didn\u2019t want readers to think the city in the story is the actual Norilsk. It\u2019s only one letter of the actual Norilsk. The rest is blank, to be filled in by the person reading.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>The scene of what the dog Arthur finds in the basement of the building is one straight from a nightmare or horror film.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Why is it important not to look away from the rough aspects of existence? How does this come into play in the story?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I don\u2019t think of \u201cA Liberation\u201d \u2014 or any of my stories, really \u2014 as looking at the rough aspects of existence. That would require more of a journalistic impulse than I have. As you say, that scene is from a nightmare. I am much more interested in learning people\u2019s nightmares than learning the facts of their lives. As a writer, I am not interested in the prose equivalent of cinema v\u00e9rit\u00e9. Rather, I seek to create space for reflection, poetry, prayer, and even, if we\u2019re lucky, transcendence.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Not that many years ago, I would have shied away from any such religious terminology, but though I\u2019m not a religious person, I like the religious impulse. It honors mystery and wonder. If I could be more of something, I would want to be more of a mystic. I\u2019ve never read a hermit poet I didn\u2019t like. (The great failure of my life is that I did not go into the mountains of China and become a hermit poet. Maybe there\u2019s still time.)<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I worked for a year at a yeshiva high school (I was the token goy) and one day at lunch one of the other teachers asked me what my own religion was. I said I didn\u2019t have one. She said, with great seriousness, \u201cI think literature is your religion. It is how you pray.\u201d She was not teasing me. She meant it. And she did not mean it in a trivial way. For her, faith is what gets us through life. Belief, faith \u2014 without it, for her, there would be nothing. I knew that and so I listened to what she said with honor and humility. And immediately I knew she was right about me.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In moments of pain, I turn to poetry and plays and stories. In moments of joy, I do the same. I commune with my idea of the spirits of writers past. I study words and sentences and paragraphs as if they are tea leaves, portents, miracles. I seek meaning in the sounds and images from pages that attract me, that pleasure me, that scar me, chastise me, confound me. I share texts as if sharing bread. I write to meditate and to honor and to exorcise.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It\u2019s no wonder that I\u2019ve been drawn throughout my life to things like ancient Chinese poetry or Japanese haiku or American Transcendentalism (especially Thoreau). One of my best friends and greatest artistic mentors and compatriots is a Zen priest. These affinities are not coincidence. The colleague who told me my religion is literature, that stories and poems are my prayers, she saw it all in a deeper way than I was able at that point to see myself. I kept thinking about what she said and finally decided to embrace it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The third section of the collection is, I think, all about these ideas. The stories in the third section are less stories than prayers. Dark, difficult, painful prayers. But prayers. And sometimes, though not in obvious ways, confessions.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MATTHEW CHENEY\u2019s debut collection of fiction, <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Blood: Stories<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, won the Hudson Prize and was published by Black Lawrence Press in 2016. His academic book <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Modernist Crisis and the Pedagogy of Form: Woolf, Delany, and Coetzee at the Limits of Fiction<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> was published by Bloomsbury in 2020. <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">About That Life: Barry Lopez and the Art of Community<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> was released by Punctum Books in April 2023 and <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Last Vanishing Man and Other Stories<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> by Third Man Books in May 2023.<\/span> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">His work has been published by <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Conjunctions, One Story, Weird Tales, Strange Horizons, Best Gay Stories, Literary Hub, The Los Angeles Review of Books<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, and elsewhere.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" data-attachment-id=\"18005\" data-permalink=\"https:\/\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/night-time-logic-matthew-cheney\/nm-cover-1\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/nm-cover-1.jpg?fit=708%2C1074&amp;ssl=1\" data-orig-size=\"708,1074\" data-comments-opened=\"1\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;orientation&quot;:&quot;0&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"nm cover (1)\" data-image-description=\"\" data-image-caption=\"\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/nm-cover-1.jpg?fit=675%2C1024&amp;ssl=1\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-18005\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/nm-cover-1.jpg?resize=231%2C350&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"cover of The Night Marchers\" width=\"231\" height=\"350\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/nm-cover-1.jpg?resize=231%2C350&amp;ssl=1 231w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/nm-cover-1.jpg?resize=675%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 675w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/nm-cover-1.jpg?w=708&amp;ssl=1 708w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 231px) 85vw, 231px\" \/>DANIEL BRAUM writes \u201cstrange tales\u201d in the tradition of Robert Aickman. His stories, set in locations around the globe, explore the tension between the psychological and supernatural.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The all-new Cemetery Dance Publications edition of his first short story collection <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Night Marchers and Other Strange Tales<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> can be found <a href=\"https:\/\/www.cemeterydance.com\/nightmarchersbraum\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">here<\/a>.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cemetery Dance Publications will be releasing his novella <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Serpent\u2019s Shadow<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> in Fall 2023. Braum is the author of the books <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Underworld Dreams<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Wish Mechanics<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Tales of the Strange and Fantastic,<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeti. Tiger. Dragon<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #000000;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Braum is the editor of the <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Spirits Unwrapped<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> anthology, the host of the Night Time Logic series and the annual New York Ghost Story Festival. Find him on his <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@danielbraum7838\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">You Tube channel DanielBraum<\/a>, <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">on social media, and at <\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/bloodandstardust.wordpress.com\/?fbclid=IwAR3FAr7W-8DKG9u2wNWIBgfoIiJyWgcZj3NJf3SjOgY2NtXwjptPPaxhzTM\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">https:\/\/bloodandstardust.wordpress.com<\/span><\/a>.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>\u201cMagic Tricks. Nightmares. Ambiguities and Confessions\u201d Night Time Logic is the part of a story that is felt but not consciously processed.\u00a0 In this column I explore the phenomenon of Night Time Logic and other aspects of horror and dark fiction through in depth conversation with authors about their stories.\u00a0 I have an interest in &hellip; <a href=\"https:\/\/www.cemeterydance.com\/extras\/night-time-logic-matthew-cheney\/\" class=\"more-link button bg-gold white\">Continue Reading!<span class=\"screen-reader-text\"> &#8220;Night Time Logic with Matthew Cheney&#8221;<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":5,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[2407],"tags":[294,1996,2942,2408],"class_list":["post-18003","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-night-time-logic","tag-columns","tag-daniel-braum","tag-matthew-cheney","tag-night-time-logic"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.4 - 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